Wolves acquire Lamelo Ball and Josh Green for Naz

[YBBR]

I don't buy for a second that McDaniels is still 6'9, 185 either.

Yeah. They don't ever update any of the measurements year to year. You come into the league get your measurement and they forget about you.

Jaden is probably 6' 10" and some change. I don't know 210, 215 maybe? He's way bigger than his rookie year. That dude was skinny his first year or two.

[YBBR]

Naz Reid for instance is still listed at 6'9" 265. Oh you mean the guy that at one point said he was over 280 because of injury and dropped 40+ lbs and is now probably like 6'10" 230? They never update any of the measurables from the NBA combine going forward.

Which I think they should do every year at like media day or whatever. I'm sure the NBA has enough resources to enter some height and weight data on an excel document once a year.

[weimy froob]

someone posted that Joan is 7'1". i've never seen that number before. I've seen 7 foot, but lately they've been posting 6'11", if that inch or two matters to you. it kind of matters to me. I like 7 foot or 7'1" better for Beringer.

[SHAFA]

Naz Reid for instance is still listed at 6'9" 265. Oh you mean the guy that at one point said he was over 280 because of injury and dropped 40+ lbs and is now probably like 6'10" 230? They never update any of the measurables from the NBA combine going forward.

Which I think they should do every year at like media day or whatever. I'm sure the NBA has enough resources to enter some height and weight data on an excel document once a year.

I thought there was some reg put in place a few years back that required accurate numbers to be reported, but I think it’s clear that’s not happening.

[somuchyummy]

I think the players probably don't care much. They do their comparisons right on the floor. The stats are more for us geeky froobheads.

[Beef Supreme]

No. I’m saying we are going to be the most undersized team in the league. I think that’s a problem. You don’t. We’ll see how it shakes out.

I think you're overstating the problem (which I agree is a problem) by a fair amount. I don't think it's going to bite us that often in the regular season. I think we'll hit a playoff matchup that will exploit this matchup issue at some point and that might be curtains for the season. But that's okay. This is a major reset of the core of this team. Not having it be a real title contender in year 1 is not a crime.

But Beef we hit a playoff matchup the last 2 years that exploited our lack of ball handling. It was predictable and frustrating. We weren’t going to bypass the Spurs or Thunder with the current core or minor tweaks.

I know.

We switched weaknesses in the short term. And in theory, finding a decent PF down the road won’t be as hard as it was to find a secondary ball-handler/creator (assuming the Ball move works). Don’t light work out. But for the short term, we have a new weakness and I think someone will eventually exploit that. And that’s okay.

[aztimberwolves]

I think you're overstating the problem (which I agree is a problem) by a fair amount. I don't think it's going to bite us that often in the regular season. I think we'll hit a playoff matchup that will exploit this matchup issue at some point and that might be curtains for the season. But that's okay. This is a major reset of the core of this team. Not having it be a real title contender in year 1 is not a crime.

But Beef we hit a playoff matchup the last 2 years that exploited our lack of ball handling. It was predictable and frustrating. We weren’t going to bypass the Spurs or Thunder with the current core or minor tweaks.

I know.

We switched weaknesses in the short term. And in theory, finding a decent PF down the road won’t be as hard as it was to find a secondary ball-handler/creator (assuming the Ball move works). Don’t light work out. But for the short term, we have a new weakness and I think someone will eventually exploit that. And that’s okay.

Ok. That’s fair.

I guess it just perspective which weakness you think is worse?

[Oriole81]

Point of clarification...

Is it that people are upset about the Ball trade in general, or just the fact that they weren't able to make a subsequent trade to better balance the roster?

Had we also made the Green/Shannon trade for Santi Aldama, or a trade of Green/Donte for a random $27M or so PF, would people feel better about Lamelo?

[mlhouse]

Point of clarification...

Is it that people are upset about the Ball trade in general, or just the fact that they weren't able to make a subsequent trade to better balance the roster?

Had we also made the Green/Shannon trade for Santi Aldama, or a trade of Green/Donte for a random $27M or so PF, would people feel better about Lamelo?

I think so. It just seemed that the Ball-Green trade created an unbalanced roster and it just does not make sense.

But, I after the dust settled I think it was the plan from the start.

I would also say that the Wolves are structuring their team to match the OKC Thunder, not the Spurs. Lots of athletic, perimeter orientated defenders with lots of athleticism. And good perimeter shooters. When a big goes to the low block, then the defenders double them with their movement skills.

I am not sure it will work. I think the critical thing for it to work is that the outside shooting for the Wolves has to be very good. Josh Green needs to shoot the 3 at the high levels he has in his career. Then if Edwards, McDaniels, Dosumu, and Shannon can hit their shots like last season and Lamelo shoots at the higher end of his career deep %, they might be able to make that work. Last season the four wolves I mentioned above shot over 40% from deep. Green shot 42%. Ball is a career 36.5% from 3, but I think he might get better looks on the Wolves.

But, this roster strategy will fall apart if multiple shooters falls apart and their percentages decline.

[SHAFA]

Point of clarification...

Is it that people are upset about the Ball trade in general, or just the fact that they weren't able to make a subsequent trade to better balance the roster?

Had we also made the Green/Shannon trade for Santi Aldama, or a trade of Green/Donte for a random $27M or so PF, would people feel better about Lamelo?

Personally, I just dislike Ball immensely. Hoping he changes my mind though.

The rest I really don’t care about one way or the other. I wanted to see two things from this offseason: dumping Randle and getting someone in to move Edwards off the ball.

They accomplished both.

[Catalyst]

Point of clarification...

Is it that people are upset about the Ball trade in general, or just the fact that they weren't able to make a subsequent trade to better balance the roster?

Had we also made the Green/Shannon trade for Santi Aldama, or a trade of Green/Donte for a random $27M or so PF, would people feel better about Lamelo?

Personally, I just dislike Ball immensely. Hoping he changes my mind though.

The rest I really don’t care about one way or the other. I wanted to see two things from this offseason: dumping Randle and getting someone in to move Edwards off the ball.

They accomplished both.

I remember feeling the same way when they got Rudy. The covid thing just disturbed me. That has worked well so hoping for a repeat with Ball.

[Beef Supreme]

But Beef we hit a playoff matchup the last 2 years that exploited our lack of ball handling. It was predictable and frustrating. We weren’t going to bypass the Spurs or Thunder with the current core or minor tweaks.

I know.

We switched weaknesses in the short term. And in theory, finding a decent PF down the road won’t be as hard as it was to find a secondary ball-handler/creator (assuming the Ball move works). Don’t light work out. But for the short term, we have a new weakness and I think someone will eventually exploit that. And that’s okay.

Ok. That’s fair.

I guess it just perspective which weakness you think is worse?

Probably depends on matchups, I guess.


Seeing Edwards trapped and neutralized while the rest of the team couldn’t get it done 4 on3 was frustrating.


But watching a team get abused on the glass and beaten with second chance points is also maddening.


It will be different and if you can’t be great, at least be interesting.

[YBBR]

The Ball move is great on paper, but the game isn't played on paper. The talent is there. They needed another perimeter threat to take pressure off of Ant and for the offense to get to the next gear.

I question the BBIQ, maturity, and if LaMelo can be a winning player on a winning team that has championship aspirations. I don't think anyone has those answers yet.

[SHAFA]

Point of clarification...

Is it that people are upset about the Ball trade in general, or just the fact that they weren't able to make a subsequent trade to better balance the roster?

Had we also made the Green/Shannon trade for Santi Aldama, or a trade of Green/Donte for a random $27M or so PF, would people feel better about Lamelo?

Personally, I just dislike Ball immensely. Hoping he changes my mind though.

The rest I really don’t care about one way or the other. I wanted to see two things from this offseason: dumping Randle and getting someone in to move Edwards off the ball.

They accomplished both.

I remember feeling the same way when they got Rudy. The covid thing just disturbed me. That has worked well so hoping for a repeat with Ball.

Rudy was different for me just because he was intelligent and had a well-documented history of having raised the floor defensively for all those Utah teams. The Covid thing during the presser was poor taste, but I think he took more shit for that then was deserved.

Ball’s a general knucklehead with a well-documented history of immaturity and recklessness on the floor for poor teams, coupled with a long injury history and a fat contract. He’s fighting up a steep hill in my eyes.

[Oriole81]

Point of clarification...

Is it that people are upset about the Ball trade in general, or just the fact that they weren't able to make a subsequent trade to better balance the roster?

Had we also made the Green/Shannon trade for Santi Aldama, or a trade of Green/Donte for a random $27M or so PF, would people feel better about Lamelo?

I think so. It just seemed that the Ball-Green trade created an unbalanced roster and it just does not make sense.

But, I after the dust settled I think it was the plan from the start.

I would also say that the Wolves are structuring their team to match the OKC Thunder, not the Spurs. Lots of athletic, perimeter orientated defenders with lots of athleticism. And good perimeter shooters. When a big goes to the low block, then the defenders double them with their movement skills.

I am not sure it will work. I think the critical thing for it to work is that the outside shooting for the Wolves has to be very good. Josh Green needs to shoot the 3 at the high levels he has in his career. Then if Edwards, McDaniels, Dosumu, and Shannon can hit their shots like last season and Lamelo shoots at the higher end of his career deep %, they might be able to make that work. Last season the four wolves I mentioned above shot over 40% from deep. Green shot 42%. Ball is a career 36.5% from 3, but I think he might get better looks on the Wolves.

But, this roster strategy will fall apart if multiple shooters falls apart and their percentages decline.

If that is the case, which is very possible, then I think we should push back against the narrative of "we just traded away one hole for another hole."
They had the ability to do this without creating such a perceived hole at PF, but yet they chose not to.

Those are two different conversations.

[Beef Supreme]

Personally, I just dislike Ball immensely. Hoping he changes my mind though.

The rest I really don’t care about one way or the other. I wanted to see two things from this offseason: dumping Randle and getting someone in to move Edwards off the ball.

They accomplished both.

I remember feeling the same way when they got Rudy. The covid thing just disturbed me. That has worked well so hoping for a repeat with Ball.

Rudy was different for me just because he was intelligent and had a well-documented history of having raised the floor defensively for all those Utah teams. The Covid thing during the presser was poor taste, but I think he took more shit for that then was deserved.

Ball’s a general knucklehead with a well-documented history of immaturity and recklessness on the floor for poor teams, coupled with a long injury history and a fat contract. He’s fighting up a steep hill in my eyes.

I hated the minimal protection on the picks we traded for Rudy. We nearly had the nightmare scenario with the Edwards injury scare against Denver this year in the playoffs. Many feared that was an ACL. If it had been, this is a lost season coming up and Utah gets our unprotected pick next summer. We very nearly lived that nightmare.

Otherwise, I respected the swing at making an impact move, something this franchise often balks at. Even though I don’t particularly like Rudy, the value we’ve traded so far has been worth it.

[Catalyst]

I think there might be a case for thinking most of his immaturity and floor behaviour might be in response to the lack of help given to making the team better around him. Why should he be serious about any of the games while they actively tanked for half his tenure? I will wait to see what his reaction and play is like with an obvious up tick in both players and serious Championship contention. He has never really been around a winning team. I hope it gives him incentive to be better.

[Small Hands]

I remember feeling the same way when they got Rudy. The covid thing just disturbed me. That has worked well so hoping for a repeat with Ball.

Rudy was different for me just because he was intelligent and had a well-documented history of having raised the floor defensively for all those Utah teams. The Covid thing during the presser was poor taste, but I think he took more shit for that then was deserved.

Ball’s a general knucklehead with a well-documented history of immaturity and recklessness on the floor for poor teams, coupled with a long injury history and a fat contract. He’s fighting up a steep hill in my eyes.

I hated the minimal protection on the picks we traded for Rudy. We nearly had the nightmare scenario with the Edwards injury scare against Denver this year in the playoffs. Many feared that was an ACL. If it had been, this is a lost season coming up and Utah gets our unprotected pick next summer. We very nearly lived that nightmare.

Otherwise, I respected the swing at making an impact move, something this franchise often balks at. Even though I don’t particularly like Rudy, the value we’ve traded so far has been worth it.

Kessler is pretty damn good. Outside of that, they drafted keyonte George and Will Riley. They have next year’s unprotected 1st, but yeah… we won that trade most likely.

[Oriole81]

The Ball move is great on paper, but the game isn't played on paper. The talent is there. They needed another perimeter threat to take pressure off of Ant and for the offense to get to the next gear.

I question the BBIQ, maturity, and if LaMelo can be a winning player on a winning team that has championship aspirations. I don't think anyone has those answers yet.

That may be a fair criticism, but you also could absolutely say the same thing about Randle.

[Oriole81]

I think there might be a case for thinking most of his immaturity and floor behaviour might be in response to the lack of help given to making the team better around him. Why should he be serious about any of the games while they actively tanked for half his tenure? I will wait to see what his reaction and play is like with an obvious up tick in both players and serious Championship contention. He has never really been around a winning team. I hope it gives him incentive to be better.

And that's not just a newfound homer take.
People were saying that years ago, especially in the 1v1 comparisons to Edwards about guys taken in the same draft class, but which got drafted to completely different environments.

[somuchyummy]

Finch, a week or so ago, on LaMelo - "almost ideal in the sense that he's got such a high IQ and so much connectivity". I will assume - maybe I'm wrong - that Finch was referring to BBIQ.

[YBBR]

The Ball move is great on paper, but the game isn't played on paper. The talent is there. They needed another perimeter threat to take pressure off of Ant and for the offense to get to the next gear.

I question the BBIQ, maturity, and if LaMelo can be a winning player on a winning team that has championship aspirations. I don't think anyone has those answers yet.

That may be a fair criticism, but you also could absolutely say the same thing about Randle.

I think most of us knew what Julius Randle was at that point in his career. There was more clarity there that this was a clear downgrade from Towns that we made due to the CBA changing, but we picked up some good ancillary pieces in Donte and then the pick which turned into Beringer for our troubles. Those turned out to be the good pieces of the trade.

For all of LaMelo's perceived faults, I have more faith and a higher opinion of his basketball prowess than Julius Randle. Younger, more talented, higher ceiling, bigger position of need, etc...that doesn't mean it's going to work. I think it's fair to say this has a better shot at being a real difference maker than Randle'e arrival.

[Catalyst]

I think there might be a case for thinking most of his immaturity and floor behaviour might be in response to the lack of help given to making the team better around him. Why should he be serious about any of the games while they actively tanked for half his tenure? I will wait to see what his reaction and play is like with an obvious up tick in both players and serious Championship contention. He has never really been around a winning team. I hope it gives him incentive to be better.

And that's not just a newfound homer take.
People were saying that years ago, especially in the 1v1 comparisons to Edwards about guys taken in the same draft class, but which got drafted to completely different environments.

The thing that gives hope is the obvious elevation of players around him. He raises ceilings and the hopeful conclusion of what this team could be with everyones ceiling raised is why they did what they did. I for one, don't feel the loss of Randle's bully ball and Naz's streakiness will be as large a hole as the floor leadership one they just filled. I don't know their plans for Green and if he will be given any role in this so that is a question mark I am trying to find answers for. Meanwhile hope springs eternal, in Ant, Finch and Connolly we are shakily trusting. Go Wolves.

[Beef Supreme]

The Ball move is great on paper, but the game isn't played on paper. The talent is there. They needed another perimeter threat to take pressure off of Ant and for the offense to get to the next gear.

I question the BBIQ, maturity, and if LaMelo can be a winning player on a winning team that has championship aspirations. I don't think anyone has those answers yet.

That may be a fair criticism, but you also could absolutely say the same thing about Randle.

I think most of us knew what Julius Randle was at that point in his career. There was more clarity there that this was a clear downgrade from Towns that we made due to the CBA changing, but we picked up some good ancillary pieces in Donte and then the pick which turned into Beringer for our troubles. Those turned out to be the good pieces of the trade.

For all of LaMelo's perceived faults, I have more faith and a higher opinion of his basketball prowess than Julius Randle. Younger, more talented, higher ceiling, bigger position of need, etc...that doesn't mean it's going to work. I think it's fair to say this has a better shot at being a real difference maker than Randle'e arrival.

Maybe for some. But a lot of people on this board thought Randle was the better player. Many said losing Towns was “addition by subtraction” and called him things like an “empty calorie stat-stuffer” who doesn’t help you win. I know because I swam upstream against that current here for a long time.


You may have thought that it was a financially necessary downgrade. I know some did, so I’m trying not to paint with a broad brush. But it was not at all a consensus opinion.


Personally, I’ve never liked Randle and always liked Towns and feel vindicated in those opinions.

[Oriole81]

The Ball move is great on paper, but the game isn't played on paper. The talent is there. They needed another perimeter threat to take pressure off of Ant and for the offense to get to the next gear.

I question the BBIQ, maturity, and if LaMelo can be a winning player on a winning team that has championship aspirations. I don't think anyone has those answers yet.

That may be a fair criticism, but you also could absolutely say the same thing about Randle.

I think most of us knew what Julius Randle was at that point in his career. There was more clarity there that this was a clear downgrade from Towns that we made due to the CBA changing, but we picked up some good ancillary pieces in Donte and then the pick which turned into Beringer for our troubles. Those turned out to be the good pieces of the trade.

For all of LaMelo's perceived faults, I have more faith and a higher opinion of his basketball prowess than Julius Randle. Younger, more talented, higher ceiling, bigger position of need, etc...that doesn't mean it's going to work. I think it's fair to say this has a better shot at being a real difference maker than Randle'e arrival.

I’m not necessarily going all the way back to rehash the entirety of the Towns trade.
Just looking at the present iteration, and how we had probably taken it as far as we could go.

[YBBR]

That may be a fair criticism, but you also could absolutely say the same thing about Randle.

I think most of us knew what Julius Randle was at that point in his career. There was more clarity there that this was a clear downgrade from Towns that we made due to the CBA changing, but we picked up some good ancillary pieces in Donte and then the pick which turned into Beringer for our troubles. Those turned out to be the good pieces of the trade.

For all of LaMelo's perceived faults, I have more faith and a higher opinion of his basketball prowess than Julius Randle. Younger, more talented, higher ceiling, bigger position of need, etc...that doesn't mean it's going to work. I think it's fair to say this has a better shot at being a real difference maker than Randle'e arrival.

I’m not necessarily going all the way back to rehash the entirety of the Towns trade.
Just looking at the present iteration, and how we had probably taken it as far as we could go.

Oh yeah, we weren't going anywhere with Julius Randle as a focal point of our offense. New York came to the same conclusion after watching him flame out in the East playoffs the seasons prior.

I am cautiously optimistic about the addition of LaMelo Ball, fom a basketball standpoint. I didn’t like the Julius Randle trade. Especially after coming off the WCF. I am pleasantly surprised at how good Donte Divencenzo actually is. Beringer's got a real shot too. Many people are really high on his potential.

I have a lot more hope for this LaMelo move. Even if he rubs me the wrong way a bit.

[somuchyummy]

I'm still of the opinion that Julius gets an overly bad rap. He faltered badly in the playoffs against SAS - but in the first series against Denver was a very respectable, worthwhile 19.2/ 7.3/ 4.2 in a six game drubbing. As for the regular season - 33 mpg over 79 games, 21/7/5 on 55%/32%/80%. He won more than a few games for us - and, pouty or not, we are going to need to replace that production.

[twolves31]

I'm still of the opinion that Julius gets an overly bad rap. He faltered badly in the playoffs against SAS - but in the first series against Denver was a very respectable, worthwhile 19.2/ 7.3/ 4.2 in a six game drubbing. As for the regular season - 33 mpg over 79 games, 21/7/5 on 55%/32%/80%. He won more than a few games for us - and, pouty or not, we are going to need to replace that production.

Randle is fine if the goal is to make the playoffs. Although he's only done that 4 times in 12 seasons. He's about to play for his 5th team in 13 seasons, and the team that trades him gets better and wins a ring two years later. Denver these past few seasons have had fantastic stats in the regular season, but has wilted against playoff physicality.

[weimy froob]

I'm still of the opinion that Julius gets an overly bad rap. He faltered badly in the playoffs against SAS - but in the first series against Denver was a very respectable, worthwhile 19.2/ 7.3/ 4.2 in a six game drubbing. As for the regular season - 33 mpg over 79 games, 21/7/5 on 55%/32%/80%. He won more than a few games for us - and, pouty or not, we are going to need to replace that production.

the Knicks won the trade based on a championship. but until that happened the verdict on it was very much in doubt. the season before Randle was getting accolades after the first two series and people were ready to proclaim that the Wolves won it. even at the end of the regular season this year the lean was to the Wolves after the seasons that Randle and DD had with Beringer in the wings. the playoffs changed all that. DD's injury. Randle's ineffectiveness against the Spurs and the Knicks great run sealed the deal. further, it became apparent that the Wolves were going to move off of Randle after they were eliminated. but he was a very important player for them this year and when you combined the numbers with DD it wasn't a terrible trade. Beringer is the wild card. he can make it an even better one if he reaches the potential some see for him.

[YBBR]

Julius Randle just isn't a #2 option on a legitimate contender. He's not. He's just not that good. Full stop. There's too many holes in his game. Most of us knew this. He doesn't elevate his teammates enough to make that big of a difference.

His inability to generate quality looks or generate points for himself or others from the perimeter to take pressure off of Ant is what we have needed desperately in tue playoffs. Julius couldn't do it. He ended up coughing up the ball whenever the opposition sent a double his way too.