Wolves acquire Lamelo Ball and Josh Green for Naz

[Rusty Kuntz]

And I’m not sure Joan can play the 4. I’m damn sure Rudy can’t.

I beg to differ, Beef. Rudy’s ready to make you proud.

Proud.

[Dan33185]

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[DonaldDouchebag]

I read something, of course I can’t find it now, but it was about the many great PGs who went on to have success with their second team after working out their growing pains with their first. Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Kyle Lowry, guys like that.

[Jimi_Thing]

I read something, of course I can’t find it now, but it was about the many great PGs who went on to have success with their second team after working out their growing pains with their first. Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Kyle Lowry, guys like that.

[Oriole81]

I read something, of course I can’t find it now, but it was about the many great PGs who went on to have success with their second team after working out their growing pains with their first. Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Kyle Lowry, guys like that.

Chauncey Billups, Tyrese Haliburton, Derrick White, Dyson Daniels, Jason Williams, Jrue Holiday on the higher end, just off the top of my head.

To a lesser extent, even guys we poke fun of like D'angelo Russell and Lonzo Ball became better versions of themselves after getting away from that awful post Kobe/pre Lebron version of the Lakers.
Markelle Fultz became serviceable again in Orlando.

Probably alot more, so good point.

*Good add on Brunson as well.

[mlhouse]

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A lot of this reminds me of Pistol Pete Maravich. Lesser extent Ricky Rubio. They brought a lot of fun to the game.

Maravich averaged 44.2 points/game in college at LSU. 43.8 as a sophomore. 44.2 as a junior. 44.5 as a senior. He played in an era when freshmen could not play varsity college basketball and without a 3 point line. He was the definition of volume shooter, but with the pace of that era I think he could have added 5 more shot attempts per game because he would have just crossed half court a few feet and shot. I think it is conceivable he could have averaged 60 points a game with the 3 point rule.

[Beef Supreme]

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A lot of this reminds me of Pistol Pete Maravich. Lesser extent Ricky Rubio. They brought a lot of fun to the game.

Maravich averaged 44.2 points/game in college at LSU. 43.8 as a sophomore. 44.2 as a junior. 44.5 as a senior. He played in an era when freshmen could not play varsity college basketball and without a 3 point line. He was the definition of volume shooter, but with the pace of that era I think he could have added 5 more shot attempts per game because he would have just crossed half court a few feet and shot. I think it is conceivable he could have averaged 60 points a game with the 3 point rule.

Looks like a 6-7 Jason Williams to me.

[SHAFA]

I read something, of course I can’t find it now, but it was about the many great PGs who went on to have success with their second team after working out their growing pains with their first. Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Kyle Lowry, guys like that.

Chauncey Billups, Tyrese Haliburton, Derrick White, Dyson Daniels, Jason Williams, Jrue Holiday on the higher end, just off the top of my head.

To a lesser extent, even guys we poke fun of like D'angelo Russell and Lonzo Ball became better versions of themselves after getting away from that awful post Kobe/pre Lebron version of the Lakers.
Markelle Fultz became serviceable again in Orlando.

Probably alot more, so good point.

*Good add on Brunson as well.

I certainly hope that ends up being the case, but I can’t put Ball in with most of those guys you listed. Maybe it’s simple bias, I don’t know.

Holiday was a heady, intelligent type, and grew into an AS in Philly before being shuffled off in all their stupidity.

Haliburton was on his way too, but they had Fox there and moved him for Sabonis.

White and Daniels certainly grew after leaving their respective teams, but again, they’re more cerebral in their games compared to Ball.

Nash had a similar flair to his game, but I don’t remember him as one that would pull up and launch from 38-feet with 17 seconds on the clock. I’d put Rubio in a similar area, just with a shittier shot.

Jason Williams though - might be the best comp I’ve heard stylistically. He honed in his shit going from Sac to Memphis.

[mlhouse]

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A lot of this reminds me of Pistol Pete Maravich. Lesser extent Ricky Rubio. They brought a lot of fun to the game.

Maravich averaged 44.2 points/game in college at LSU. 43.8 as a sophomore. 44.2 as a junior. 44.5 as a senior. He played in an era when freshmen could not play varsity college basketball and without a 3 point line. He was the definition of volume shooter, but with the pace of that era I think he could have added 5 more shot attempts per game because he would have just crossed half court a few feet and shot. I think it is conceivable he could have averaged 60 points a game with the 3 point rule.

Looks like a 6-7 Jason Williams to me.

All those flashy moves were Pistol Pete.

[Dan33185]

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A lot of this reminds me of Pistol Pete Maravich. Lesser extent Ricky Rubio. They brought a lot of fun to the game.

Maravich averaged 44.2 points/game in college at LSU. 43.8 as a sophomore. 44.2 as a junior. 44.5 as a senior. He played in an era when freshmen could not play varsity college basketball and without a 3 point line. He was the definition of volume shooter, but with the pace of that era I think he could have added 5 more shot attempts per game because he would have just crossed half court a few feet and shot. I think it is conceivable he could have averaged 60 points a game with the 3 point rule.

Looks like a 6-7 Jason Williams to me.

[Oriole81]

Google AI: Did Jason Williams improve after being traded to Memphis?

Yes, Jason Williams significantly improved as a player and floor general after being traded from the Sacramento Kings to the Memphis Grizzlies in 2001. While he was celebrated for his flashy streetball highlights early in his career, the trade forced him to develop control, better decision-making, and defensive effort.

His evolution into a more structured, efficient, and reliable point guard includes a few key details:

*Improved Assist-to-Turnover Ratio: He learned to manage the game, drastically cutting down on the unforced errors and erratic turnovers that plagued his time in Sacramento, eventually achieving one of the best assist-to-turnover ratios in the league.

*Team Success: He embraced a more disciplined system under head coach Hubie Brown, which resulted in him leading the Grizzlies to their first-ever playoff berths in 2004 and 2005.

Mastering His Role: He maintained his elite passing abilities but added control to his game, a maturation that ultimately laid the foundation for him to become the starting point guard on the Miami Heat 2006 NBA Championship

[Oriole81]

^^

That's why I included J-Will on my "off the top of my head" list of guys. The narrative I remember was that he became a more mature player.
The write up above helps to outline the specific reasons again, which may not be so easy to see in the raw statistics.

[Beef Supreme]

A lot of this reminds me of Pistol Pete Maravich. Lesser extent Ricky Rubio. They brought a lot of fun to the game.

Maravich averaged 44.2 points/game in college at LSU. 43.8 as a sophomore. 44.2 as a junior. 44.5 as a senior. He played in an era when freshmen could not play varsity college basketball and without a 3 point line. He was the definition of volume shooter, but with the pace of that era I think he could have added 5 more shot attempts per game because he would have just crossed half court a few feet and shot. I think it is conceivable he could have averaged 60 points a game with the 3 point rule.

Looks like a 6-7 Jason Williams to me.

It’s a stylistic comparison. Not necessarily a production one.


Hence “looks like.”

[A$$MAN]

I think this was already posted, but:

Jeremias Engelmann: Interesting wrinkle of the LaMelo trade: According to an analysis I'm running for a future article, LaMelo Ball ranked second in the NBA (behind Jokic) in raising his teammates TS%. Expect everyone on the Hornets to shoot a little worse next season, and the Wolves to shoot better

[aztimberwolves]

I think this was already posted, but:

Jeremias Engelmann: Interesting wrinkle of the LaMelo trade: According to an analysis I'm running for a future article, LaMelo Ball ranked second in the NBA (behind Jokic) in raising his teammates TS%. Expect everyone on the Hornets to shoot a little worse next season, and the Wolves to shoot better

But he’s supposed to be a dumb player according to some on here. How can a dumb player make others better???

[mlhouse]

I think this was already posted, but:

Jeremias Engelmann: Interesting wrinkle of the LaMelo trade: According to an analysis I'm running for a future article, LaMelo Ball ranked second in the NBA (behind Jokic) in raising his teammates TS%. Expect everyone on the Hornets to shoot a little worse next season, and the Wolves to shoot better

But he’s supposed to be a dumb player according to some on here. How can a dumb player make others better???

I have heard "unserious" but never dumb,

[Mplsfonz]

I think this was already posted, but:

Jeremias Engelmann: Interesting wrinkle of the LaMelo trade: According to an analysis I'm running for a future article, LaMelo Ball ranked second in the NBA (behind Jokic) in raising his teammates TS%. Expect everyone on the Hornets to shoot a little worse next season, and the Wolves to shoot better

But he’s supposed to be a dumb player according to some on here. How can a dumb player make others better???

I have heard "unserious" but never dumb,

Can't believe but I agree with Mil. I heard he doesn't like putting in the work to be a great player. He has natural talent and it is elite. But the reason he gets hurt so much (or so I've heard) Is he does a Candy man after the practice is over. He want to go shopping for cars jewelry etc. He needs to stay after and get some strength to endure 82 games. Some have it (Ant) some don't. Maybe he will change.

[SHAFA]

But he’s supposed to be a dumb player according to some on here. How can a dumb player make others better???

I have heard "unserious" but never dumb,

Can't believe but I agree with Mil. I heard he doesn't like putting in the work to be a great player. He has natural talent and it is elite. But the reason he gets hurt so much (or so I've heard) Is he does a Candy man after the practice is over. He want to go shopping for cars jewelry etc. He needs to stay after and get some strength to endure 82 games. Some have it (Ant) some don't. Maybe he will change.

I probably called him an idiot, but never said he wasn’t talented. Many players have been skilled at making their teammates better while also being reckless, careless and inefficient. Ball can use his vision to whip a nice pass in one possession, then launch a contested, one-legged 35-footer 5 seconds into the shot clock the next. He’s got this inherent need to introduce complexity and risk to basic situations that should be very simple. It’s that kind of shit that makes me call him an idiot. He’s infuriating.

It’s understandable that some like using a broad brush to apply their own meanings to others words though.

[weimy froob]

there was dumb mentioned in the forum. I think I'm going to trust Connelly on this than a rumor that he doesn't like putting the work in. also, the statistical reality that he made his teammates better and was the engine of a high powered offense last season. I am concerned about the injury history, because the number of games he's missed is also a statistical reality. lots and lots of games. the team should be able to handle a game here and there, but a major one would put a big hole in the plans for next season.

[Beef Supreme]

I have heard "unserious" but never dumb,

Can't believe but I agree with Mil. I heard he doesn't like putting in the work to be a great player. He has natural talent and it is elite. But the reason he gets hurt so much (or so I've heard) Is he does a Candy man after the practice is over. He want to go shopping for cars jewelry etc. He needs to stay after and get some strength to endure 82 games. Some have it (Ant) some don't. Maybe he will change.

I probably called him an idiot, but never said he wasn’t talented. Many players have been skilled at making their teammates better while also being reckless, careless and inefficient. Ball can use his vision to whip a nice pass in one possession, then launch a contested, one-legged 35-footer 5 seconds into the shot clock the next. He’s got this inherent need to introduce complexity to some basic situations that should be very simple. It’s that kind of shit that makes me call him an idiot. He’s infuriating.

It’s understandable that some like using a broad brush to apply their own meanings to others words though.

This is correct. This is the criticism. Not that he doesn’t know how to play the game.

[Oriole81]

I remember for years, the argument for why we wanted to trade for Rudy and expedite Edwards' timeline, was to force him to mature his game early on, not get into bad habits, incorporate a healthy culture, and set high expectations.

We then looked directly at Lamelo as the antithesis of that, a guy with the same relative level of talent that was drafted two picks later, but on a team that places no expectations or structure on its young player, and then is just content watching his 20s slide by with nothing to show for it.

I think that's the opportunity here.
We've been saying this about Charlotte for years, so if we keep the light shined on them as the problem, then we can justify the upside that Ball could have after being introduced to a new culture that has won, and has high expectations.

Who knows what the outcome would be, but I do think its a reasonable hypothesis.
Especially considering it's been a talking point for years, and Ball did have recent success when the Hornets actually started putting an emphasis on winning.

[A$$MAN]

I remember for years, the argument for why we wanted to trade for Rudy and expedite Edwards' timeline, was to force him to mature his game early on, not get into bad habits, incorporate a healthy culture, and set high expectations.

We then looked directly at Lamelo as the antithesis of that, a guy with the same relative level of talent that was drafted two picks later, but on a team that places no expectations or structure on its young player, and then is just content watching his 20s slide by with nothing to show for it.

I think that's the opportunity here.
We've been saying this about Charlotte for years, so if we keep the light shined on them as the problem, then we can justify the upside that Ball could have after being introduced to a new culture that has won, and has high expectations.

Who knows what the outcome would be, but I do think its a reasonable hypothesis.
Especially considering it's been a talking point for years, and Ball did have recent success when the Hornets actually started putting an emphasis on winning.

Who knows what Edwards looks like now had he ended up in Charlotte on a perpetual tanking/rebuilding team. Culture and expectations go a long way in player development.

[aztimberwolves]

there was dumb mentioned in the forum. I think I'm going to trust Connelly on this than a rumor that he doesn't like putting the work in. also, the statistical reality that he made his teammates better and was the engine of a high powered offense last season. I am concerned about the injury history, because the number of games he's missed is also a statistical reality. lots and lots of games. the team should be able to handle a game here and there, but a major one would put a big hole in the plans for next season.

There was absolutely people using "dumb" and "low BBIQ" to describe him. Flex, Donald, and MnWild were the ones using those terms.

Yes, the kid has to grow up A LOT off the court. But what do you expect when you have LaVar as a dad. On the court he has made major strides. He had a phenomenal season last year. It looks like hes getting it and ascending. Id rather get him on that trajectory than deteriorating season to season and adding him on that downward slide.

I think you can also chalk up his injury plagued seasons and tie them directly to the teams tanking as well. Why play him if he's ready in March and you are going nowhere. Look at Utah and how many games JJJ was "Allegedly" hurt.

As far as his work ethic, is any one of us in the gym at practice?? How in the hell does anybody know if he's serious or not. You just see stupid videos of him being a knucklehead and assume hes focused on that 24/7. Also, what effect will larger expectations and better culture play in improving him? Hes great freinds with Ant, and Ant is a gym rat. Could be that Ant turns Lamelo into a gym rat. Who knows?

Its obvious Connely sees the talent and hes been pretty damn good at seeing a bigger picutre than anybody on here. All i know, is that team was sinking fast! We had to address PG and we got one of the better ones out there for a pretty low price.

[DonaldDouchebag]

there was dumb mentioned in the forum. I think I'm going to trust Connelly on this than a rumor that he doesn't like putting the work in. also, the statistical reality that he made his teammates better and was the engine of a high powered offense last season. I am concerned about the injury history, because the number of games he's missed is also a statistical reality. lots and lots of games. the team should be able to handle a game here and there, but a major one would put a big hole in the plans for next season.

There was absolutely people using "dumb" and "low BBIQ" to describe him. Flex, Donald, and MnWild were the ones using those terms.

Yes, the kid has to grow up A LOT off the court. But what do you expect when you have LaVar as a dad. On the court he has made major strides. He had a phenomenal season last year. It looks like hes getting it and ascending. Id rather get him on that trajectory than deteriorating season to season and adding him on that downward slide.

I think you can also chalk up his injury plagued seasons and tie them directly to the teams tanking as well. Why play him if he's ready in March and you are going nowhere. Look at Utah and how many games JJJ was "Allegedly" hurt.

As far as his work ethic, is any one of us in the gym at practice?? How in the hell does anybody know if he's serious or not. You just see stupid videos of him being a knucklehead and assume hes focused on that 24/7. Also, what effect will larger expectations and better culture play in improving him? Hes great freinds with Ant, and Ant is a gym rat. Could be that Ant turns Lamelo into a gym rat. Who knows?

Its obvious Connely sees the talent and hes been pretty damn good at seeing a bigger picutre than anybody on here. All i know, is that team was sinking fast! We had to address PG and we got one of the better ones out there for a pretty low price.

I think I said the team on a whole is low BBIQ but what he fuck do I know. Ball certainly shows that with his ridiculous shot selection. But he wasn’t on a team that even cares about winning.

I think this is a great situation for him and I’m excited to watch this play out. I’m not too worried about his play, just about the injuries.

[A$$MAN]

One thing to consider as people debate Ball's playing style, BB IQ, decision making, etc. is he was 7th in the NBA last year in usage but 17th in turnovers per game at 2.8. Guys with more TO's than him (in order):

Doncic
Avdija
Jokic
Cunningham
Brown
Harden
Jalen Johnson
Westbrook
Castle
Durant
Sengun
Booker
Banchero
James
Edwards
Mitchell

His career TO's per game is only 3.2 so not too bad considering how much he has the ball in his hands.

[YBBR]

One thing to consider as people debate Ball's playing style, BB IQ, decision making, etc. is he was 7th in the NBA last year in usage but 17th in turnovers per game at 2.8. Guys with more TO's than him (in order):

Doncic
Avdija
Jokic
Cunningham
Brown
Harden
Jalen Johnson
Westbrook
Castle
Durant
Sengun
Booker
Banchero
James
Edwards
Mitchell

His career TO's per game is only 3.2 so not too bad considering how much he has the ball in his hands.

I think it's more of his shot selection than his turnovers. Like you pointed out his Ast to Turnover ratio is pretty good I think. I'd be lying of I said I watched much of LaMelo Ball in Charlotte last year and how his game translates to our squad. The talent is there and hopefully Ant also opens up his game in the same respect because he's never played with a player of Ant's caliber and the gravity he causes on offense.

[DonaldDouchebag]

One thing to consider as people debate Ball's playing style, BB IQ, decision making, etc. is he was 7th in the NBA last year in usage but 17th in turnovers per game at 2.8. Guys with more TO's than him (in order):

Doncic
Avdija
Jokic
Cunningham
Brown
Harden
Jalen Johnson
Westbrook
Castle
Durant
Sengun
Booker
Banchero
James
Edwards
Mitchell

His career TO's per game is only 3.2 so not too bad considering how much he has the ball in his hands.

Yep. Definitely a lot to like and a lot of value for pretty moderate trade assets going out.

[Small Hands]

One thing to consider as people debate Ball's playing style, BB IQ, decision making, etc. is he was 7th in the NBA last year in usage but 17th in turnovers per game at 2.8. Guys with more TO's than him (in order):

Doncic
Avdija
Jokic
Cunningham
Brown
Harden
Jalen Johnson
Westbrook
Castle
Durant
Sengun
Booker
Banchero
James
Edwards
Mitchell

His career TO's per game is only 3.2 so not too bad considering how much he has the ball in his hands.

I think it's more of his shot selection than his turnovers. Like you pointed out his Ast to Turnover ratio is pretty good I think. I'd be lying of I said I watched much of LaMelo Ball in Charlotte last year and how his game translates to our squad. The talent is there and hopefully Ant also opens up his game in the same respect because he's never played with a player of Ant's caliber and the gravity he causes on offense.

Yep… he dribbles the clock down and chucks shit shots. Froobs are gonna be bitching about Melo in here a lot. Unless, he stops that silliness, and pushes the ball up court and runs the offense efficiently. Maybe he will miraculously change after 6 years. Idk… when you hear former players and current players saying he doesn’t play winning basketball. I tend to listen.

[aztimberwolves]

One thing to consider as people debate Ball's playing style, BB IQ, decision making, etc. is he was 7th in the NBA last year in usage but 17th in turnovers per game at 2.8. Guys with more TO's than him (in order):

Doncic
Avdija
Jokic
Cunningham
Brown
Harden
Jalen Johnson
Westbrook
Castle
Durant
Sengun
Booker
Banchero
James
Edwards
Mitchell

His career TO's per game is only 3.2 so not too bad considering how much he has the ball in his hands.

I think it's more of his shot selection than his turnovers. Like you pointed out his Ast to Turnover ratio is pretty good I think. I'd be lying of I said I watched much of LaMelo Ball in Charlotte last year and how his game translates to our squad. The talent is there and hopefully Ant also opens up his game in the same respect because he's never played with a player of Ant's caliber and the gravity he causes on offense.

Yep… he dribbles the clock down and chucks shit shots. Froobs are gonna be bitching about Melo in here a lot. Unless, he stops that silliness, and pushes the ball up court and runs the offense efficiently. Maybe he will miraculously change after 6 years. Idk… when you hear former players and current players saying he doesn’t play winning basketball. I tend to listen.

So if he dribbles down the clock and chucks up bad shots, how did charlotte have one of the best and most efficient offenses last year??

[witljon]

One thing to consider as people debate Ball's playing style, BB IQ, decision making, etc. is he was 7th in the NBA last year in usage but 17th in turnovers per game at 2.8. Guys with more TO's than him (in order):

Doncic
Avdija
Jokic
Cunningham
Brown
Harden
Jalen Johnson
Westbrook
Castle
Durant
Sengun
Booker
Banchero
James
Edwards
Mitchell

His career TO's per game is only 3.2 so not too bad considering how much he has the ball in his hands.

I think it's more of his shot selection than his turnovers. Like you pointed out his Ast to Turnover ratio is pretty good I think. I'd be lying of I said I watched much of LaMelo Ball in Charlotte last year and how his game translates to our squad. The talent is there and hopefully Ant also opens up his game in the same respect because he's never played with a player of Ant's caliber and the gravity he causes on offense.

Yep… he dribbles the clock down and chucks shit shots. Froobs are gonna be bitching about Melo in here a lot. Unless, he stops that silliness, and pushes the ball up court and runs the offense efficiently. Maybe he will miraculously change after 6 years. Idk… when you hear former players and current players saying he doesn’t play winning basketball. I tend to listen.

I’m betting the players who talked negatively about LaMelo don’t care for him.